Since I'm still a little short on time, and because Sminklemeyer and CaliValleyGirl garnered some very good discussion in my last posts comment section, I think I want to touch just a little bit more (who isn't?) on the Sheehan matter.
Just like Schiavo, Sheehan is a personal family matter brought to the forefront thanks to 24 hour news broadcasts. Both cases involve death and both cases involve politics, and sadly both involve exploitation...CLICK READ MORE
I am not a mother. And I have never lost a son in battle. I'm not even a father and I haven't lost a single family member in the Iraq war. I do not have a clue as to how one would react to that sort of situation. I can only imagine that the grief and anguish involved would be nearly insurmountable. Anyone that says what Sheehan is doing is wrong when they have not been through the same experience themselves are hypocrites. People that always like to tell others how to react to situations they have never experienced scare me.
I do not support Sheehan's demands one single bit. I do not support removing our troops because everything is just too hectic and bloody. George Bush's rush to war and ill-fated planning are to blame for present day Iraq, not Sheehan and others who want the war to end. And George Bush right now is the only one who can make it right. Our troops have done everything that has been asked of them, including dying. Now it's time, past time, for Bush to answer his call and be a leader and guarantee to all of those grieving families that their son or daughter, father or mother, brother or sister did not die in vein. Sometimes politics creates very strange situations and as much as we all hate politicians it will nevertheless be the elected politician George Bush himself that has the power to make Iraq work. The politicians have not lived up to our troops, but now they must.
Sminklemeyer made the mention of the farmer at Crawford. I do not know much about that situation. The farmer is obviously senile. For the sake of argument, let me turn this around. What if it was one of the war-protesters on that tractor wearing a Michael Moore shirt mowing down those crosses? What words would be used to describe that sort of action? Anti-American, terrorist, treasonous? I'm sure the argument would be reversed had that taken place. I don't support Sheehan and I sure as hell don't support that farmer.
Fox News likes to yell and scream that Sheehan is making her son's death a political issue. I have to disagree with that. George Bush made it political the moment he ordered the invasion of Iraq on false pretences. Everything is political right now. Don't be naive enough to think that those who blindly support this war are not political in their own right.
I think CaliValleyGirl made a few very good points with her comment on this blog and now on her site she has an update to some more very grey issues about the current condition of Iraq. I think it's time we all open our eyes, including myself, and whether we support this war or want Bush to go and fight it himself does not matter. What matters is that Iraq is not what we were promised and after 2 and a half years we deserve more from Bush than patience. Sminklemeyer asked if I saw the protests turning dangerous and I honestly think they very well could. But it's just like CaliValleyGirl said in her own post, how can we expect all the danger to take place in Iraq and the burden to only be on our troops while we go about our merry lives, or our third vacation of the year like Bush. That's politics as it slaps us all in the face.
Thanks to Smink and CVG for the discussion. Comment away.
8.18.2005
Open Thread- - Kinda
Posted by Chris at 1:42 PM
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15 comments:
I agree that it is time for the rhetoric to stop, none of it matters no matter which side you were on at the outset.
Sheehan, although I don't agree with what she did believe she has the right to do it, in this country most of all she has that right. This has been hard for me as I see a lot of people radically screaming for us to leave Iraq and supporting the hoopla around Sheehan. I can’t fully do that deep in my mind; maybe in my heart but not in my head.
As for the farmer in Texas, sorry all I can say on this is REDNECK bastard. Being annoyed with people camped out near your home but not on your land does not give you the right to vandalize in that manner.
Obviously we can’t leave Iraq, at this time. It would be committing another atrocity. What Bush and his administration need to do is to tell it straight to everyone. We fucked up, we were ignorant or ignored the relevant information, we made one of the biggest mistakes in modern history but we can’t leave now. We can’t be responsible for a civil war and for leaving a country, economically and from a security standpoint, in much worse shape than when we came. THIS IS OUR PLAN; THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO DO IN A STEP BY STEP PROCEDURE TO GET OUR SOLIDERS OUT OF IRAQ AND THIS IS HOW LONG IT SHOULD TAKE. IT WILL NOT BE FAST BUT WITH THE SUPPORT OF OUR COUNTRY AND ITS PEOPLE AND THE COUNTRIES AND PEOPLES OF OUR ALLIES, WHICH OUR TROOPS DO NEED BY THE WAY, HOPEFULLY WE CAN EXPEDIATE THIS PROCESS.
Let’s get to it Mr. Bush, get us some help and get a plan and get your ass back to Washington.
Mr. Bush does not seem to realize the significance of it all , he just does not; no one who realizes the magnitude of this whole situation would be on vacation or at least such a lengthy one at this time.
Maybe I will redo this when I get home I’, in a bit of a hurry.
OH MJ: I know you are a Democrat.
Alice,
I always enjoy your comments. They're insightful. But I must disagree with your comment on the farmer... "REDNECK bastard." I think he's frustrated. Think about it, he lives in a town of 700 where the biggest news is the commodity futures. He's probably just tired of the protests, that's all. I, too, grow tired of protests. Every weekend, they take place right outside my apartment. As a vet, I have become frustrated with these particular protesters... BECAUSE THEY START WAY TOO EARLY. Now, does this mean I'm going to shoot my shotgun in the air? No. But like Chris Rock said to O.J., "I'm not saying agree with killing your wife, but I understand."
I don't mean to call you out; I just think you were a little harsh. I mean, how would you react if hundreds of pro-Bush protesters showed up on your doorstep and didn't leave for three weeks?
Alice, I agree with your plan. I have been waiting for Bush to do just that. He won't level with anyone. I'm not sure he needs to admit that we as a country have made a mistake or mistakes in Iraq, but he does need to admit to a plan that will guarantee success is in the works and quit with his patience routine. I think I'm just as mixed as you about the whole Sheehan circus too. Thanks for reading.
Smink, I understand the frustration. I don't agree with the protesters either. I can understand the farmer getting upset, but he should not have run over the crosses. Maybe he should have aimed for the protesters or someone's car, but not for the soldier's crosses. With war there will be protests, I just think there are better ways to protest things than what anti-war protesters do.
I can understand the farmer's frustration with every day waking up to the chaos of outsiders surrounding your home. Maybe in a way that is exactly what is going on in Iraq as well. Those people sure aren't fighting to bring Saddam back; they are fighting for their homes and when outsiders come in and take over, just like in Crawford, it turns into a very tense situation. Now, I in no way want to leave the impression that I think what the farmer did or what the protesters are doing is on scale with the bloodbath in Iraq. But all politics is local. This is no different. I cannot agree with what the farmer did and I cannot agree with those who are protesting various things in Crawford only one of which is the war. I must agree with you Smink and admit that I can understand everyone's frustration including the mothers and the farmers. Thanks for reading big guy.
Maybe Redneck Bastard was a little harsh but I don't see that being sick of having people protesting warrants mowing down symbolic crosses. It makes no sense and it takes some pretty scary people to do that. It is not like the like his only son or something. So although I agree it was a harsh term I still do not understand that kind of action in this particular case.
If they were seriously keeping him from getting any sleep, or hurting his family in any way I could understand it; if it was his way of protesting then violence begets nothing.
If hundreds of pro Bush activists showed up at my door I would take some pictures and them probably go about getting them removed in a legal fashion with a bit of foul language thrown in but only if my sleep had been impeded.
I admit to the harshness of the term though.
MJ: I think he at least has to admit it to himself, face it he has yet to do that. But in reality an admission at this point is the least of our concerns, the mistake is implied anyway.
MJ; You, and actually all of the above commenters, have found a way to express damned near every thought I've had lately on the Sheehan situation, and the war in general. I've not commented on the Sheehan situation on my own blog because I can empathize with her, her supporters, and those who are offended by her actions; they ALL have a POINT, frankly. I believe it just goes to show that we are all frustrated; regardless of our ideology; with what is going on right now.
If I had the talent to write that you possess, MJ; I'd have blogged on the Sheehan subject by now, because you've certainly nailed it on the head as far as my own basic point of view goes. My hat goes off to you, Alice, and Sminklemeyer for your respectful dialogue.
Blog ON, y'all...
Ok, now for my two cents.
Like just about anyone, Sheehan has full right to disagree with the war, but she disgraces herself and her sons memory by compelling hate upon anyone that supports the war. The story is actually not that big, but as MJ states, the media's obsession with dissent keeps it alive.
About Bush's "lies" in the buildup to war. I have talked to several soldiers that have served in Iraq, and the ones that I have talked to have told me that there are signs of WMD in many different places in Iraq. Old Iraqi bases when Gieger countered are hotbeds of radioactivity. Saddam certainly had WMD, the question is really when did he have them, and what exactly did he have?
Iraq is really worse off in the short run after the overthrow of Saddam, and in this world of "I need it now", the short run seems to be all anybody is focused on. I think we can all agree that if we get this right, Iraq can be a stronghold of Midddle Eastern democracy, to be envied by all.
This is respectful dialogue, I would like to know what industry everyone is in that makes this place where people actually discuss and not disparage.
My feelings have been expressed here already. I have feeling for the mother but do not agree with what she did but as people have already stated she has the right to do it and that I respect.
I have not seen too much that indicates to me there was any need to go into Iraq that having been said I agree with the general consensus here that we need to stay, get a plan and do it right then get out.
Congratulations for the respectful, reasonable dialogue, without malice or contempt and with open mindedness.
This is respectful dialogue, I would like to know what industry everyone is in that makes this place where people actually discuss and not disparage.
My feelings have been expressed here already. I have feeling for the mother but do not agree with what she did but as people have already stated she has the right to do it and that I respect.
I have not seen too much that indicates to me there was any need to go into Iraq that having been said I agree with the general consensus here that we need to stay, get a plan and do it right then get out.
Congratulations for the respectful, reasonable dialogue, without malice or contempt and with open mindedness.
GTL, thank you very much. I'm not sure I deserve all the kind words. I too enjoy your site.
Craig, I'll agree with you halfway. But I'm not going to pass judgment on Sheehan or comment on who or what she disgraces. Those are her emotions and until I lose a son in this war I'm not going to pass judgment. People's perceptions, and I include myself in that as well, are irrelevant right now. The protest in Crawford will not win this war; that should be the focus of this country. And surely taking a 5 week vacation will not do any of the above.
Also I'm not sure really what to respond with to the buildup towards war. I'm certain there is no denying the fact that WMD in the hands of the wrong people brought us to Iraq. Now the official findings of the US government is that no WMD existed. Blame bad intelligence or Bush's rush, either way if we did invade to disarm Saddam of WMD we failed. And if we invaded to stop the spread of WMD into the hands of other countries or terrorists, and according to your comment the WMD were there, then we failed at that also. So, to suggest that the WMD were there but escaped Iraq highlights an even greater intelligence failure and much greater failure of leadership by Bush. I'm not sure what scares me more, the fact that Saddam didn't have the WMD and our intelligence goofed up, or the fact that Saddam did have them and we let them escape out of Iraq. Both are total failures. I don't see how insisting that Saddam had WMD validates anything that has taken place in this war. Thus, that is one of the reasons why Bush won't talk about WMD anymore.
But I do agree Craig that we have to get Iraq right. We have no other choice.
Businessman, thanks for the visit. Sometimes we do keep it civil in here. I always enjoy the conversations. I have the best readers in all of blogland. I really wish I had more time to give to the site. If you do disagree with something that I say or anyone else in here, by all means speak up. We encourage it. I can't speak for anyone else in here as to what profession we are in, but all I can say for me is that I do work in politics. Thanks for showing an interest in the site.
Thanks to everyone for reading and commenting.
What Sheehan is doing is no more subversive than when a group of women stood in silent protest in front of the white house for six months - neither spoken to nor acknowledged by any of the politicians - beaten up on by male passersby - and Woodrow Wilson tried his best to have them committed to a mental asylum. What did they want? The vote. How dare they. Why are we so frightened of one woman with a desire to be heard? Why would anyone disagree with what she is currently doing? If they know one God Damn thing about American History - the fact is that anything positive in terms of change, civil rights, enlightenment or awareness that has happened in this country has been the result of someone with principals attempting to be heard and a large number of people trying to silence them.
The farmer in Texas was no different than the male passersby who felt it their responsibility to beat up those uppity women who didn't know their place.
But dissecting everything that Sheehan ever said in her life as some feeble way to invalidate what she's doing is simply fear and cowardice. She is making people uncomfortable and has gotten people talking about the war and it's not even holiday season. Or are we to shut up and go shopping and forget about it?
We seem to agree and disagree equally on the issue of Iraq. Not a bad start!
I have commented on Ms. Sheehan, and regardless of my disagreements with her actions and viewpoint, I will never say that she does not have the right to do what she has done; to say what she has said.
But with public exposure comes implicit responsibility, as in this case.
For myself, I would like to see Ms. Sheehan to get her personal life back together with her family, and privately confront her grief. The circus that this protest has become, and the soundbites played around the world, have become detrimental to our own troops themselves.
Again, she can do whatever the constitution and laws of the land allow - it is her right as a citizen. We should all feel remorse for her plight, and that of so many others who have to deal with the pain of losing a family member or friend to the war.
I never thought about how Sheehan and Schrivo (sp?) was the same. I am for taking the troops out of Iraq. I live near the Pentagon in the Washington D.C area, and have military folk for neighbors.
But I never thought that the two deaths were the same. But your posting has given me a lot to think about. Both deaths have been overtaken by others who have agendas to fulfill. It is time to for me to think about how this private affair became so public and dirty.
I am a mother of a draft age son, BTW.
Timmer, thanks for the visit. It appears that we do agree on a few things. You are welcome here any time.
Carper, thank you for the visit. Of course Schiavo and Sheehan are very different, but when one steps out of the box they don't appear all that different after all.
Thanks for reading; come back any time.
Sheehan can say whatever she wants but I do not agree with her either. We can not pull all of our troops out right now.
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